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	<title>Comments on: Adventure Design 2.0</title>
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	<description>RPG Blog compliments of Bob the Benevolent Beholder</description>
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		<title>By: Dan the DM</title>
		<link>http://1001bobs.weegamers.com/2010/01/adventure-design-2-0/comment-page-1/#comment-85</link>
		<dc:creator>Dan the DM</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 16 Jan 2010 18:43:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://1001bobs.weegamers.com/?p=193#comment-85</guid>
		<description>I would like to contribute to making a open standard for this, but I don&#039;t know where to begin.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I would like to contribute to making a open standard for this, but I don&#8217;t know where to begin.</p>
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		<title>By: Chris Cumming</title>
		<link>http://1001bobs.weegamers.com/2010/01/adventure-design-2-0/comment-page-1/#comment-84</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris Cumming</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 Jan 2010 15:51:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://1001bobs.weegamers.com/?p=193#comment-84</guid>
		<description>@Ken Marable - I&#039;ve definitely been hearing a lot of grumblings about the lack of innovation in RPG PDFs for quite some time now.  I think I remember seeing Clark&#039;s post at some point.  I&#039;ll have to look up Dire Kobold as I don&#039;t think I&#039;ve seen their work. I&#039;ve seen 0One Game&#039;s Dungeon Tile Designer before which was a real eye opener for what is possible within the PDF format.

The choice of web-based direction is partly due to personal level of knowledge. Its what I know best and can be completely cross-platform. But its also because of the growth of cloud computing, software as a service, and other intriguing movements within application development that intrigue me.

Regarding licensing that is true I&#039;m not sure entirely where I&#039;d go there. It is definitely an important consideration in the overall scheme.  I know that Wolfgang Baur has been successful with the &quot;mechanics can&#039;t be copyrighted&quot; route with Kobold Quarterly. As far as I know everything published in their magazine and online has been acceptable to WotC&#039;s lawyers. I&#039;d doubt that he could continue for as long without them noticing especially given what a big name he is in the industry.

I wish you luck in your endeavor and will have to check it out.


@greywulf - I&#039;ve seen 0One Game&#039;s Dungeon Tile Designer (http://0onegames.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=26&amp;products_id=184) but not their encounter products like Desecrated Temple. I&#039;ll be picking that up post haste. While I think that many GMs might be reluctant to try out some of these more customizable tools it may be a niche of the small market for now.  Other web based tools like Dungeon Mastering&#039;s DMTools (http://tools.dungeonmastering.com) are growing in popularity.

@j_king - A wiki is a great format and certainly the adventure structure would exist with similar considerations in place. Things like the dynamic tools, graphics, hover-over short glossary entries, etc push it out of that medium.

Those are definitely good questions. I&#039;ll admit that a web app is closer to what I know. I&#039;ve not worked with OpenGL or other cross-platform coding so I&#039;m not aware of the capabilities. Definitely something to research though.  

With data format I was thinking XML initially because it would allow for import and export easily. Export a creature you want to tweek, drop it in WotC&#039;s Adventure Tools, change, then drop it back into the adventure.  My core skills though lie in PHP and MySQL so I was thinking in those lines.

I&#039;ll definitely drop you a line via email in the next few days.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Ken Marable &#8211; I&#8217;ve definitely been hearing a lot of grumblings about the lack of innovation in RPG PDFs for quite some time now.  I think I remember seeing Clark&#8217;s post at some point.  I&#8217;ll have to look up Dire Kobold as I don&#8217;t think I&#8217;ve seen their work. I&#8217;ve seen 0One Game&#8217;s Dungeon Tile Designer before which was a real eye opener for what is possible within the PDF format.</p>
<p>The choice of web-based direction is partly due to personal level of knowledge. Its what I know best and can be completely cross-platform. But its also because of the growth of cloud computing, software as a service, and other intriguing movements within application development that intrigue me.</p>
<p>Regarding licensing that is true I&#8217;m not sure entirely where I&#8217;d go there. It is definitely an important consideration in the overall scheme.  I know that Wolfgang Baur has been successful with the &#8220;mechanics can&#8217;t be copyrighted&#8221; route with Kobold Quarterly. As far as I know everything published in their magazine and online has been acceptable to WotC&#8217;s lawyers. I&#8217;d doubt that he could continue for as long without them noticing especially given what a big name he is in the industry.</p>
<p>I wish you luck in your endeavor and will have to check it out.</p>
<p>@greywulf &#8211; I&#8217;ve seen 0One Game&#8217;s Dungeon Tile Designer (<a href="http://0onegames.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=26&#038;products_id=184" rel="nofollow">http://0onegames.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=26&#038;products_id=184</a>) but not their encounter products like Desecrated Temple. I&#8217;ll be picking that up post haste. While I think that many GMs might be reluctant to try out some of these more customizable tools it may be a niche of the small market for now.  Other web based tools like Dungeon Mastering&#8217;s DMTools (<a href="http://tools.dungeonmastering.com" rel="nofollow">http://tools.dungeonmastering.com</a>) are growing in popularity.</p>
<p>@j_king &#8211; A wiki is a great format and certainly the adventure structure would exist with similar considerations in place. Things like the dynamic tools, graphics, hover-over short glossary entries, etc push it out of that medium.</p>
<p>Those are definitely good questions. I&#8217;ll admit that a web app is closer to what I know. I&#8217;ve not worked with OpenGL or other cross-platform coding so I&#8217;m not aware of the capabilities. Definitely something to research though.  </p>
<p>With data format I was thinking XML initially because it would allow for import and export easily. Export a creature you want to tweek, drop it in WotC&#8217;s Adventure Tools, change, then drop it back into the adventure.  My core skills though lie in PHP and MySQL so I was thinking in those lines.</p>
<p>I&#8217;ll definitely drop you a line via email in the next few days.</p>
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		<title>By: j_king</title>
		<link>http://1001bobs.weegamers.com/2010/01/adventure-design-2-0/comment-page-1/#comment-83</link>
		<dc:creator>j_king</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 Jan 2010 13:44:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://1001bobs.weegamers.com/?p=193#comment-83</guid>
		<description>I was going to work on something like a &quot;Cartesian wiki&quot; where an adventure could be written in the popular wiki format with the top-level being a 2-D Cartesian map. But only 2 things got in my way:

1. the complexity of writing / balancing adventures in 4e
2. time

There are also a few questions to ask yourself:

- Why a web application? It would introduce operating costs and complicates the design of the application. Perhaps something built with a cross-platform windowing toolkit and OpenGL would be easier and more functional.

- Why does it have to be expensive to produce? From my observations when I was planning out such a project, it could potentially be a two-person job at most. One to handle UI/OpenGL and the other to do data/business logic. If you have time to kill, a single programmer should be able to do it.

- The data format would be interesting. XML? Do you store images or other binary data embedded or compress everything in a package?

If there is interest from other programmers or from the community at large, I could certainly try and take up the task. I just don&#039;t think I can do it alone and make progress in any reasonable amount of time. However with a little help from interested people (programmers, DM&#039;s experienced with writing published adventures and familiar with multiple RPG systems) we could probably whip something up.

You can reach me by email [at] james [at] agentultra -dot] com
.-= j_king&#180;s last blog ..&lt;a href=&quot;http://agentultra.com/?p=429&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;I Deleted My Facebook Account&lt;/a&gt; =-.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I was going to work on something like a &#8220;Cartesian wiki&#8221; where an adventure could be written in the popular wiki format with the top-level being a 2-D Cartesian map. But only 2 things got in my way:</p>
<p>1. the complexity of writing / balancing adventures in 4e<br />
2. time</p>
<p>There are also a few questions to ask yourself:</p>
<p>- Why a web application? It would introduce operating costs and complicates the design of the application. Perhaps something built with a cross-platform windowing toolkit and OpenGL would be easier and more functional.</p>
<p>- Why does it have to be expensive to produce? From my observations when I was planning out such a project, it could potentially be a two-person job at most. One to handle UI/OpenGL and the other to do data/business logic. If you have time to kill, a single programmer should be able to do it.</p>
<p>- The data format would be interesting. XML? Do you store images or other binary data embedded or compress everything in a package?</p>
<p>If there is interest from other programmers or from the community at large, I could certainly try and take up the task. I just don&#8217;t think I can do it alone and make progress in any reasonable amount of time. However with a little help from interested people (programmers, DM&#8217;s experienced with writing published adventures and familiar with multiple RPG systems) we could probably whip something up.</p>
<p>You can reach me by email [at] james [at] agentultra -dot] com<br />
<span class="cluv"> j_king&#180;s last blog ..<a href="http://agentultra.com/?p=429" rel="nofollow">I Deleted My Facebook Account</a> <span class="heart_tip_box"><img class="heart_tip" alt="My ComLuv Profile" border="0" width="16" height="14" src="http://1001bobs.weegamers.com/wp-content/plugins/commentluv/images/littleheart.gif"/></span></span></p>
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		<title>By: greywulf</title>
		<link>http://1001bobs.weegamers.com/2010/01/adventure-design-2-0/comment-page-1/#comment-81</link>
		<dc:creator>greywulf</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 09 Jan 2010 15:33:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://1001bobs.weegamers.com/?p=193#comment-81</guid>
		<description>0One Games do something similar to this with many of their PDfs, and I&#039;d say they&#039;re the company who are really at the forefront of what it possible with PDF technology. Take a look at their single encounter Desecrated Temple (http://0onegames.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=169), for example. You can alter the encounter difficulty with a click and the text, stats and traps alters accordingly. You can change the appearance of the graphics (open/close doors, etc) all withing a single PDF product!

the question is though whether this is really what we want - GM&#039;s I&#039;ve spoken to about this had said it&#039;s &quot;too fiddly&quot; even though the alternative is doing it all by hand. Go figure :D
.-= greywulf&#180;s last blog ..&lt;a href=&quot;http://greywulf.net/2010/01/character-du-jour-grubash-moonrunner-orc-fighter/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Character du Jour: Grubash Moonrunner, Orc Fighter&lt;/a&gt; =-.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>0One Games do something similar to this with many of their PDfs, and I&#8217;d say they&#8217;re the company who are really at the forefront of what it possible with PDF technology. Take a look at their single encounter Desecrated Temple (<a href="http://0onegames.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=169" rel="nofollow">http://0onegames.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=169</a>), for example. You can alter the encounter difficulty with a click and the text, stats and traps alters accordingly. You can change the appearance of the graphics (open/close doors, etc) all withing a single PDF product!</p>
<p>the question is though whether this is really what we want &#8211; GM&#8217;s I&#8217;ve spoken to about this had said it&#8217;s &#8220;too fiddly&#8221; even though the alternative is doing it all by hand. Go figure <img src='http://1001bobs.weegamers.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_biggrin.gif' alt=':D' class='wp-smiley' /><br />
<span class="cluv"> greywulf&#180;s last blog ..<a href="http://greywulf.net/2010/01/character-du-jour-grubash-moonrunner-orc-fighter/" rel="nofollow">Character du Jour: Grubash Moonrunner, Orc Fighter</a> <span class="heart_tip_box"><img class="heart_tip" alt="My ComLuv Profile" border="0" width="16" height="14" src="http://1001bobs.weegamers.com/wp-content/plugins/commentluv/images/littleheart.gif"/></span></span></p>
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		<title>By: Ken Marable</title>
		<link>http://1001bobs.weegamers.com/2010/01/adventure-design-2-0/comment-page-1/#comment-79</link>
		<dc:creator>Ken Marable</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 09 Jan 2010 15:10:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://1001bobs.weegamers.com/?p=193#comment-79</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m actually amazed no one has built this yet. I originally had the idea back in 2004 while reading an EN World thread. Clark Peterson made a comment to the effect of PDFs not taking full advantage of the electronic medium. He likened it to a film version of a novel by showing someone sitting and reading the book aloud. 

I mapped out all kinds of ideas, but between being too busy with work &amp; young kids, plus various people looking like they &quot;got it&quot; and could get something out before I could. Then the industry started to nosedive and then utterly dried up after the 4e announcement while we waited for OGL 2 (and then later the GSL). Along with the fact that I&#039;ve been terrible about actually finishing projects I start, I never got around to actually doing anything.

But about a month ago things aligned to finally get things off the ground with wrapping up one of the many attempts I started but abandoned. I&#039;m hoping to have the first adventure out in a few months. It&#039;s a different direction than what you point towards (which sounds similar to something Dire Kobold tried years ago, but improved as all they really did was produce custom PDFs adjusted to your preferred level and still far from taking full advantage of the electronic medium). I&#039;m actually going more of a downloadable app rather than web-based direction. But we&#039;ll see how well it pans out soon.

Also, depending on what licensing avenues you want to pursue, I know the GSL prohibits any website, so it might be tricky if you want to go the website route with the GSL. Also using the OGL and GSL together is a tricky road. And I&#039;ve been personally iffy on the &quot;mechanics can&#039;t be copyrighted, so do what you want&quot; route. 

But it&#039;s great to see people finally getting it and talking about the true potential of rpg e-publishing. Personally once someone finally pushes the limits, the community can finally see how electronic products can actually be far better than books. The PDF &quot;book wanna-bes&quot; are the 8-Tracks of publishing.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m actually amazed no one has built this yet. I originally had the idea back in 2004 while reading an EN World thread. Clark Peterson made a comment to the effect of PDFs not taking full advantage of the electronic medium. He likened it to a film version of a novel by showing someone sitting and reading the book aloud. </p>
<p>I mapped out all kinds of ideas, but between being too busy with work &amp; young kids, plus various people looking like they &#8220;got it&#8221; and could get something out before I could. Then the industry started to nosedive and then utterly dried up after the 4e announcement while we waited for OGL 2 (and then later the GSL). Along with the fact that I&#8217;ve been terrible about actually finishing projects I start, I never got around to actually doing anything.</p>
<p>But about a month ago things aligned to finally get things off the ground with wrapping up one of the many attempts I started but abandoned. I&#8217;m hoping to have the first adventure out in a few months. It&#8217;s a different direction than what you point towards (which sounds similar to something Dire Kobold tried years ago, but improved as all they really did was produce custom PDFs adjusted to your preferred level and still far from taking full advantage of the electronic medium). I&#8217;m actually going more of a downloadable app rather than web-based direction. But we&#8217;ll see how well it pans out soon.</p>
<p>Also, depending on what licensing avenues you want to pursue, I know the GSL prohibits any website, so it might be tricky if you want to go the website route with the GSL. Also using the OGL and GSL together is a tricky road. And I&#8217;ve been personally iffy on the &#8220;mechanics can&#8217;t be copyrighted, so do what you want&#8221; route. </p>
<p>But it&#8217;s great to see people finally getting it and talking about the true potential of rpg e-publishing. Personally once someone finally pushes the limits, the community can finally see how electronic products can actually be far better than books. The PDF &#8220;book wanna-bes&#8221; are the 8-Tracks of publishing.</p>
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